“You use the British common law system. We use the Napoleonic system. Your system promotes 'judge made laws' rather than legislature made laws.”
-“That is true. When we lawyers try a case we look at court decisions rather than at the laws and statutes. In California when I am working on an important case I go to our California appellate decisions first. If it is possible that the Supreme Court of the state or the nation has ruled on the issue, I go to those decisions. I would probably look at the appropriate statutes, and in some cases the debates that went on in deciding the law in order to determine legislative intent. But the intent of the majority of legislators is not nearly as important as a 2 to1 decision by our local appellate judges. And at that lower court level it is primarily the prejudices of the judges that are controlling. A few years ago I handled two pension cases with identical facts. Judges in adjoining courtrooms took diametrically opposed views and came out with opposite decisions. It was clearly the prejudice of the judges that ruled the day. In Napoleonic law, you just look at the statute, is a whole lot simpler. But if we used Napoleonic law we wouldn’t need nearly so many lawyers. So I'd probably be out of a job."
-"And Lee, I think criminal law is probably going to change even more. It was one thing when the insanity plea became a reality. People no longer had to be held accountable for their actions. But now with neuroscience entering the picture they will probably be able to find every murder, rapist and robber to have some excesses or reductions in neurotransmitters in some part of the brain or to have a cyst in an area that might cause some irrational action. Or possibly they had an alcoholic or violent parent or neighbor.”
"Exactly. Actually since all of our behavior is caused by our brain we might say that every negative action should be excused because we had no control over our thinking. In The Colonies we allow no excuses. Either you broke the law or you didn't. It doesn't matter why. Here again we deal with freedom and responsibility while your country seems to deal with the hope of equality and an evening out of responsibilities so that few people are held accountable for their actions. There is always an excuse. If they have lung cancer because they smoked, provide them with medical care--and charge somebody else for the bills. Then sue the tobacco companies. In fact, sue everybody because nothing is your fault."
-"There are just too many lawyers in our country—to eat they must sue and take 33 to 40 or more percent of the take. Since nothing is ever your fault in this society you sue to get your just deserts. Fall on a sidewalk because you were running on ice, sue the owner of the building and the city. Drink too much at a bar and get in an accident, sue the owner of the bar, the bar tender, and anyone else you can think of.”
“I didn't mention one thing, when there is a money issue in court the judge as to determine where the money will come from to pay the debt. It's not difficult if it's between two people, but if it is a case against our government or another government it becomes a little tricky. If our government were to lose a case, let's say it was a police brutality case or a case of incompetence or a mistake by a simple employee-- the judge would have to determine who would pay the judgment and how much would be paid. So if a building inspector were to approve a building and there was a massive problem with building, how much would the inspector pay and how much would the city pay?”
LAW ENFORCEMENT
-" So you do have some laws, but with all your freedom how do you enforce them?”
"We do have some uniformed police but most of the enforcement comes either from our population or from surveillance. For example if our speed limit is 65 miles an hour, we have hidden cameras and GPS devices to catch any irresponsible drivers. If it is a house break-in most people have surveillance cameras and other antitheft devices installed in their homes.
"Every citizen knows our laws and most choose to abide by them. If they don't, they can be imprisoned, fined or they can lose their citizenship.
"You people in the US spend so much time giving rights to minorities even if they don't deserve it. We try to treat everybody individually, but we are very much concerned with the majority. As I remember that's what democracy is about.
"A number of years ago I was in Los Angeles when the Rodney King case was being heard in your courts. I remember the situation. A former criminal who was on parole was driving down a highway at 100 to 117 miles an hour. That was about twice the speed limit. The police chased him for 8 miles and he not only ignored him but drove faster and more recklessly. The chase then went into a residential area where the speeds ranged from 50 to 80 miles per hour. When he finally stopped, they tried to get him to sit down but he refused. They shot him with a taser but it didn't seem to faze him much. When he kept refusing their commands to lie down and put his hands behind his head, they took out their night sticks and began beating him into submission. An amateur photographer, coming on the scene late filmed most of the beating and only the last few seconds of the original encounter where King refused to submit to the officers' requests. The occupants in his car submitted to the police, were taken into custody, but were not charged and were released. King suffered some severe injuries, but they were not life-threatening.
"The case was brought to court. King testified that if he were apprehended while drunk driving it would be a violation of his parole from prison where he had been sent for robbery. He was both drunk and under the influence of marijuana. The police were exonerated from having used excessive force.
"While ghetto youth commonly look for excuses to explode, the acquittal of the policemen gave them a perfect excuse. By the time the police and the armed services quelled the riot, 53 people were dead, almost 2400 were injured, there were 7000 fires, over 3000 businesses were attacked and there was a financial loss almost a billion dollars.
"But then the federal government brought a suit against the police saying that they had abused King's civil rights. Two officers were found guilty and were sent to federal prison for two years. One had been considered a model policeman. But as ex-felons they cannot get jobs as policemen again.
"In an eventual civil suit King was awarded 3.8 million dollars and his attorneys got $1.6 million. In later years King was arrested for: hitting his wife with a car so he served 90 days in jail for 'hit and run'. He was later arrested for speeding while under the influence of alcohol, and for resisting arrest. Nice fella!
"About the same in Arizona a border guard shot and killed a drug smuggling illegal border crosser in the back while he was running away. He too was brought to trial for violating the civil rights of the smuggler. An Arizona jury acquitted him.
"Here in The Colonies we would probably not have brought any of these officers to trial for civil rights violations. In the Rodney King case there would be no action at all against the police. In the Arizona case there might well have been. But you have a difference in your juries in liberal California and conservative Arizona. Our prejudices go with the law enforcement people not the criminals. Only if there is a serious breach of regulations would we discipline a law enforcement officer. When it is clear that the criminal instigated the altercation, he certainly did not show any responsibility so he would have abrogated any civil rights that he might have had.
“When people make the decision to prosecute law enforcement people and they have never been in the situation they are judging, we think it is irresponsible. It is different if the chief of police or another law enforcement person brings a charge against an officer but when the charge is brought by a politician or a lawyer who has never been on the front lines, it is like an African tribesman criticizing the refereeing of an American football game. He doesn’t know anything about it.
”I might say to that juries that are giving out millions of dollars of taxpayer's money that might be better spent building roads or hiring civil servants, should be required to determine where is the source of this award money. I dare say that a school custodian or a librarian might think twice before awarding a million and a half dollars to attorneys for defending an obvious cr
iminal who was breaking the law. I know how you lawyers look at it Lee, that everyone is entitled to the best defense possible but we look at what was justice in the case.
“But as you can imagine, our country is a lot more peaceful than yours. I have read that there are 731,000 gang members in the U.S. but only 708,000 policemen. I have heard that there are nine organized crime families in the US, with five in New York.
“A few years ago I was talking to a Norwegian policeman. He told me that the foreign criminals had no fear of prison because staying in a Norwegian jail was like being on vacation. It was not like the ruthless prisons of their home country. The Norwegians wanted to send them back to Lithuanian or Somalian jails, but their home countries` didn’t want to take them back. So the criminals had a win-win situation. If they stayed out of jail they could make good money. If they went to jail they lived well and were even given a salary while in jail.”
PRISONS
-" I am interested in your prison system and whether you are primarily punishing or educating prisoners. I also wonder about the cost to your society. In the US prisons cost taxpayers over $50 billion a year. In the UK it costs $57,000 per year per prisoner.
"In our Western world there seem to be a lot of criminals. In the UK there are 154 prisoners per hundred thousand population. By contrast the US has 750 per hundred thousand. Russia's percentage is lower at 600, with Israel at 325 and China under 20. In Germany it is 87 and in Norway 71. The number of men is higher than these figures would indicate. For example in the US over 1300 men are imprisoned per hundred thousand but only a little over 100 women per hundred thousand are behind bars."
"Our rates are not nearly so high. I know there have been studies showing that there is more crime among those people with lower IQs. Our people do have quite high IQs so this may be a reason. Another reason might be that our education system and our media continually preach responsibility, so there seems to be a good deal of public pressure to behave. Another factor might be that we have almost no illegal immigrants. In other countries about a third of their prison populations are noncitizens. As I mentioned all of our financial transactions are done with a credit card type of identification. It would be impossible, or at least highly unlikely, that any noncitizen could obtain such a card. And he would have to have a bank account in order to use the card.
"As you might expect, we prefer not to imprison our people.
"You may remember that some years ago in Canada because of a budget crunch they released 11% of their prisoners. They introduced more community-based sentences. Their murder rate went down 42%, burglaries reduced by 35% and assaults and robberies by 22%. (25) For this reason in both the UK and the US prisoners are being released before they have fulfilled their sentences. This indicates to us that people need not always be imprisoned in order to behave sensibly.”
- “A big problem we have in America is our high recidivism rate. About 40% of our ex-cons are back in jail within three years after being released. It seems that our rehabilitation efforts are not too successful. If California could only reduce its recidivism rate by 10% it could save almost a quarter of a billion dollars a year."
“A good part of your prison population is there because of either drug use or drug sales. We have tackled both of those areas in a rather interesting way, a way in which you may not approve. I'll get into that in a few minutes.
"If you go to prison in our country we want you to feel somewhat punished but also somewhat smarter. We don't have much of a gang culture here among our prisoners like you do in the states, with your Mexican mafias, Aryan Brotherhood, Crips and Bloods. Nevertheless we don't want our prisoners learning more criminal behavior while in prison. This is something that your prisons and juvenile detention centers seem to be pretty good at teaching."
-"Just look at how many of the major gangs were started in our California prisons. In fact most of the major American prison gangs were started our state. The Mexican Mafia was formed at the prison in Tracy. Nuestra Familia was formed at Soledad. The Texas Syndicate was formed at Folsom. The Black Guerrilla Family was formed at San Quentin as was the Aryan Brotherhood. And the Nazi Low Riders were formed in a California Youth Authority facility. Meanwhile the Crips and Bloods take their identities from the streets of Los Angeles into the prisons with them. In our state our prisons seem to manufacture criminals."
"That's the reason our prisoners start in a single cell, sort of solitary confinement but not unpleasant. They have a computer with Internet and television along with approved books. But our Internet and television are filtered. They can get news from a number of different sources and they can watch approved television programs. Many of the old programs like 'Ozzie and Harriet', 'Mash', and dramatizations of great literature are always available. As brutal as Shakespeare can be, we still allow it. But we don't allow them to see detective programs such as the CSI series because they might get more criminal ideas and see how to avoid the law. We want to give the prisoners only positive influences. Our prison system is geared to make them better citizens and not better criminals.
"Anyone in prison who has shown any violent tendencies is not allowed to lift weights. No sense making stronger rapists and muggers. We want to give the prisoners only positive influences.
"They are able to talk to approved people by phone and to our prison teachers and psychologists. Because these prisoners could not operate effectively in a free society we can't give them total freedom in prison. They would have to earn freedom. If a prisoner is judged to be psychologically balanced and able to communicate with other people, the psychologist or the teacher can recommend an additional step to freedom in which he can communicate with others during free social periods. A career criminal would find it very difficult to get this kind of permission.
"Nearly everyone speaks English, but if a prisoner did not he would be given the opportunity to learn English reading, speaking and writing. It is an option if he plans to leave the country on his release. It is a requirement if he has an invitation to stay. In the rare case that one of our citizens is illiterate he will not be allowed out until he can read at a 6th grade level. Every one of our prisoners will advance his learning in prison if his sentence is more than two years. If he had only graduated from primary school, he will have to satisfy the requirements for graduation from a middle school. If he is a graduate of the middle school, he must graduate from high school while in prison. If he is a high school graduate, he must graduate from a community college while in prison. If he has done that, he must graduate from college before being released. So every prisoner has the responsibility as part of his sentence to improve himself.
“There is also an option for training in a trade. Sometimes we merely have to get them started then they can progress at home. It is very individualistic in terms of what percentage of a sentence is punishment, what percent is ethical training, and what percent is preparation for a higher level job when he or she is released.”
"I had mentioned that inmates must pay their own upkeep. Many have a trade or business that can be carried on in prison. Others work on the prison farms or in other parts of the prison such as the library or the hospital. They get paid a fair wage for this work then have their incarceration expenses deducted from that pay. If they owe money, such as for their child's education expenses or business debt, the additional money earned goes into paying off that account.”
- “You mentioned solitary confinement. Does that mean that your prisoners have no contact with others?”
“Once we evaluate the prisoner we can put him with others in a social group that will not harm him, and may possibly help him. But if there were members of a gang, we would not let them associate with each other.”
-"In California 20% of male prisoners and 30% of female prisoners are there because of drug offenses. About 16% of the prisoners were convicted for trafficking and 15% for possession. Of course many of those in jail for possession had actually pleaded down to that charge from a more seri
ous charge for which they had been arrested..
DRUGS
"There is no question that alcohol and illegal drugs are a problem for most societies. Your country has a high rate of alcohol and drug abuse. 20% of your people binge drink every year. Denmark had over 40% of its teens get drunk at least 20 times last year. The UK, Finland and Ireland are not far behind. Whether they drink because it is an adult type thing to do and satisfies their power drives or whether they are really unhappy with their lives and want to escape--the fact is that excessive drug use is not good for the individual or the society.
"Drugs are a such a simple way of handling one's basic psychological problems. You can drink alcohol or use heroin because you want to forget your life. You can use marijuana or LSD because you want to change your perception of life. You can use cocaine or amphetamines to give you an excitement that makes your life more exciting. But these drugs have negative effects for societies. They increase traffic accidents, many increase neuroses or psychoses, most will negatively affect one's working life, and when they're outlawed they bring in criminal elements to supply what these injured psyches want.
“Then there is the fact that so many drugs are getting stronger. For example, the first research on marijuana was on 0.5% THC. This low level of the hallucinogenic was the research object into the 1950s, then stronger marijuana began to arrive with THC levels of 2, 4 and 5%. Then came 12% sinsemilla, then 25% White Widow. Mixtures of cocaine have also become much stronger as the years have passed. Then there is the fact that even younger children are using alcohol and other drugs to excess. No matter what their age, unexpected drug reactions are cited for many hospital admissions.
“And it’s not like it’s getting better. In Afghanistan they have increased the number of square miles of opium poppies to over 500. That’s a two thirds increase in 10 years. Then you have all that marijuana growing in Mexico and California. And of course illicit laboratories turnout all kinds of synthetic drugs.
"As in your country, in fact most countries, we have laws against most drug use, because its use is often irresponsible. But like your country, with 25 to 50% of your jail inmates there for drug-related offenses, we thought there might be a better way to handle the situation.
"We debated for years the best approach to handling drug problems. One compromise the government developed allowed for the self-centered drug users and those who wanted to safely pursue their drug habits without having to rob and burglarize and run the risk of jail time without drugs. That compromise was to build drug houses for those who wanted to pursue their drug habits. The society built huge drug houses in which addicts could sign themselves in and get all the drugs they wanted for nothing. But they had to sign that they would not leave the building unless cured—or dead. They also had to sign that they would take daily their contraceptive drugs. Both the males and the females were on contraceptives. They also had to work two hours a day to provide for the rent, food and drugs. For those who wanted it, medical help was available as was psychological help to get free of the habit. But few availed themselves of this option. Most feasted on the free cocaine and heroin and delighted in the society provided routes to pleasure. At the same time the society profited by being safer for all, with fewer burglaries and robberies. The cost of the drug houses was less than 10% of the cost of the crimes which had been committed by the drug crazed population. Illegal drugs almost dried up because the addicts were being treated to government grown crops or opium and coca. With no profit motive, illegal drugs nearly dried up.
-"Do any leave?"